Thank you for sharing this!! So important to discuss and hear thoughts on. Would love to know what industry this is different for and why!

love your podcasts Marisa, thank you for sharing.

xx

hey Monica! so glad you enjoyed it. tell me more about your question? are you referring to when I mentioned my friend and mentor who works in a different industry?

Thanks for putting this out there. It's so hard to articulate this feeling that you/we/I have. Can't wait to talk to you!

yes! (what? you couldn't tell from my random question?? :) sorry...sort of just threw that out there as I was listening!) I was wondering what industry it is that your friend & mentor is in and why it's so different for them in that industry? Or, I guess, why the "starving artist" notion is allowed to persist...

Excellent podcast Marisa. I kept nodding yes to so much of it. It's a touchy subject, but it definitely deserves discussion time.

thank you Marisa!! i'm staggered by that tiny figure you mentioned {even tho in my own 'jaded through experience' way i kind of just knew it would be low}. i'm about to start making fabric and was thinking about spoonflower and the option of selling through their site, about the 10% thing and whether it would work or be worth it! . . . your podcast is very timely!
sometimes it's impossible to know in advance how things might work or not work.
i also recently sought out a meeting with an agent type figure {a very lovely person} which was very uplifting in one way and also a bit depressing in another ~ he expressed how hard he thinks it is to make a living from art!
thanks again for your honesty and willingness to open this up :)

I love listening to your thoughts and I can totally relate to really wanting to share something, but hesitating SO MUCH...oh, the fears and doubts! I just love your honesty and willing to share your experiences and feelings so openly...can you come to Italy and do a creativity workshop?! :)

I was really touched by your thoughts about how the medical situation really pushed you out of your comfort zone. That is one of the things I worry about in the back of my mind - if something were to happen, it could just throw my life into chaos. It's not good to live in fear...how things can be nice at this moment, but it's so delicate that anything could throw it all out of whack...scary...

I certainly feel the injustice...how we can work hard, but get nothing out of it...or very little. If you check the Graphic Artist’s Guild Handbook of Pricing...it does try to set the standard, but royalties are low...because the hope is that the big numbers will make it "worth it." I feel the struggle all the time in creative work, but I think we must stay optimistic and try to change things if we can. Slowly push and make a difference in our industries. If society values our work more, than everything would shift. I don't think all manufacturers out there are trying to take advantage of artists...sometimes the numbers just work out that way. But the way things are...they don't have to stay that way forever... our society is changing all the time and if we look back in history, we see many examples of how we have to fight to change things that aren't "right." I have so many thoughts in my head...I feel a blog post coming on...

Hi Marisa, wow that was a really interesting and important podcast. Thanks for sharing. I think it's important for everyone to know the realities and it is true that royalties are just so so low and in fact these products couldn't exist without artists so it does seem really really off balance and actually totally wrong that the people that are providing all art/design work have to work so hard and struggle through.I think I need to listen to it again..lots of food for thought.

Hi Marisa...thanks so much for sharing this podcast. Your honesty and authenticity is so inspiring to me! I can so identify with the fear of putting things out there. I love hearing your voice because you remind me of myself and the fact that you had the courage to record this post makes me know that I can share my voice as well.

To be a self-substaining artist, that's my desire. But I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to hear the not so lovely parts of being in the creative business. I am one that likes knowing the good and the bad about the journey I am on so that when I come to the same type of cross roads I can make an informed decision and therefore being aware.

Thank You again Marisa for being YOU.

There's got to be a better way, and my guess is you're onto it. What I hear in your voice is...possibility. You don't sound cynical or jaded at all. I hear you saying that this system screws the artist who works too hard to have to split hairs for a teeny fraction of the profits. Licensing can sound like a disgusting option at times because again with corporations who make huge profits off of the artist, and though more is put into our pockets there is mass quantity of our product out in the world which we are still making pennies from.
I spend an extraordinary amount of time to handmake at a fair profit, and as soon as I change that I will have to continue with working every spare hour I have, and not make much more profit, while the integrity of my art is degraded by being sold at Hallmarks everywhere. The balance does not seem to work for me at this point.
If there are answers, my heart tells me you will find them. Thank you for this, friend. Your voice is extremely important to all of us.

thanks Pixie xo

My friend + mentor is actually a commercial talent agent. While it is still an arts driven industry. Agents only take 10% - which by the way is all literary agents take as well if publishing a book- it is artist agents that are known for taking up to 50-60%. For working actors, writer and directors - at least for now - there are unions set up to protect them. For actors, is called SAG- the Screen Actors Guild. SAG was set up to protect the actor and make sure they are getting treated equally and fairly especially in regards to compensation. Unless of course they are a star and then that is obviously a whole different ball game. I hope this answers your question?
Also I think the starving artist notion persists because some of us as artists are still believing in it and continuing to make business decisions from that stand point. What I meant to say in this podcast is that if we work towards change together, we really might be able to make a difference in eliminating this mentality going forward.

Hi Belinda! First your work is beautiful :) Second - how about selling the fabric from your own shop print on demand only or in conjunction w/ selling on Spoonflower? You are right about be willing to take a chance. We do not know how a product will be received. We can only just create our best work and take it from there. Also, I think you know this but I just want to make sure I did not sound like I was saying that it is hard for an artist to make a living. I think it is easier now than it ever has been. What I do want to say is that now is also the time continue to value ourselves, our time and our work and take that to the next level in earning power. I also hope that you are choosing to work with a different agent if you do? Anyone representing you who believes that it is hard to make a living from art is probably not the best fit. thank you for sharing all of this here Belinda. This is how we continue to learn from one another.

yes you can! thank you Becky.

Your honesty and thoughtfulness shine through. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I was kind of under the impression that "making it"did mean financially, too. I love how every time I thought of something during the podcast, you brought it up a few minutes later!

this was beautiful, marisa.

thank you for speaking your truth in such a gentle, respectful and thoughtful way.

~erin

ps ~ i took your fishbowl class last summer and am still feeling many positive ripple effects of that experience.

Thanks for your honesty. Interesting topic. I have worked for publishing companies and believe it or not, they aren't making huge profits, or much profit at all. The payroll, manufacturing, shipping, packaging, warehousing, advertising, retail space... it ads up fast. Even the most successful artists are lucky to get 10% in royalties. Standard or beginner rate is 3-5%. And many companies prefer to buy designs outright for a flat fee, because it's easier to manage your budget when you don't have unknown volume of royalty dollars to track and pay.

The smart artist retains ownership, licenses for a limited time period, and uses the brand exposure to sell more through a personal site, Etsy, etc.

It seems to me that there are way too many good artists out there. Very few great ones. Great, good or marginally talented, we all have to work very, very hard, not only at our craft but also to understand the art business. Or be content to create only for yourself.

I know for my personal experience, it is more satisfying to work in-house on design and illustration. I am more creative when I don't have to worry about health insurance and paying my bills.

Oh my, you brave eloquent and honest artist! I admire you more than you know... being able to share this in such a clear, concise and truthful way.... I am in awe!

Thankyou so... I know putting this together took WAY more than a day!!!! xoxoxoxo

thanks Laura. you definitely do know it took longer than a day since I was talking to you about this in March ;)

thanks Marisa :)

hi marisa-thank you so much for this podcast! i so appreciate your honesty and you putting your heart out there. i am just looking into licensing my artwork...so your podcast is perfect timing.

it's really interesting about actors having SAG too. thank you so much for sharing!

-juliette

Marisa, you always speak right to the heart of things, I love that about you! This is a problem for artists that I have talked about over and over again with friends, I think that the talking about it lets air into the situation and generally I feel that the frustration that you express here is the general opinion about what is going on. It feels to me that the more people are talking about the dissatisfaction with it all then the more things are heading towards a change, I hope that we start to see it soon. Thanks for having the courage to speak right to the heart of this timely and important issue!! xoFaith

Thank you for your insight Christa. Based upon what you have shared here -If the low percentages are really all that is available for an artist and the publisher still does not feel profitable -it sounds like the publishing industry as a whole may also be in need of some re-examining. All of us who enjoy being creative, either working within a company or working for ourselves deserve to be worry free about paying our bills and health insurance- oh and! creatively fulfilled

Obviously an emotional topic for you, I've never heard you like that before.

Justifiably so, in my opinion. You know what end of this I'm on. I was quite shocked when the first contracts came in. But I accepted nothing blindly and did my research. And I negotiated. Information about the state of certain industries aside, I firmly believe that we get what we ask for in life. If you don't ask for more, you won't get it.

As a part-time food writer as well, these discussions come up with respect to blogs and cookbooks too. PR folks seem to think that exposure is enough. And for some people it is, but that screws over everyone else. It sets precedents that are hard to move beyond.

That must be what you mean by maintaining the starving artist mentality.

I'm early in my new career. And the only reason I can be doing it is because I have a husband who is further in his and can make ends meet for us. He joked that he'll get early retirement when I become a quilting goddess. I hope to earn my own living at this one day, but he better make alternate plans for having a Sugar Mama! But I don't work full-time, I have clearly defined goals for myself, and I am very clear on taking on work and my reasons for doing so. I realize that being confident and self assured in your abilities and goals doesn't make it all better, but it means I have the control.

Like Christa, I also work in publishing. And her facts are accurate with regard to the profitability. Your reply is that the publishing industry might benefit from being examined as well, and I would say that is happening now…especially given the digital age we are all moving in. I specifically work in illustrated publishing, so I have particular interest in the topic of artistry and creative work within the world of publishing.
So, I would like to add to the conversation this possibility: why don’t you see the companies you have chosen to license your work with as partners? It strikes me that you are feeling isolated from the companies you have chosen to partner with. It’s an us-them mentality you have. Why?
When a manufacturer signs a contract, they are automatically on your side. I would like to suggest a possibility that I believe to be true: you have just hired a team! For a book (and I would argue it is true for any manufactured product with a long lead time before it enters the marketplace and begins to sell), you have had a group of 10 or more people sit in a room, evaluate your work, and commit their time and resources to working for you…but not only that…they are working for you for free (ok, no up front cost to you)! Without a product entering the marketplace, they are making nothing for at least 10 months until the book is ready to go to press. And then more amazing things happen: their experts technically edit it, they design it, they pour over the color proofs to make sure the color is accurate, they print it, publicize it, warehouse it, pay for ads in magazines that cost thousands of dollars.
And they do all of this because they believe in you and in your product!
Isn’t that amazing!!!?
That process can cost $20,000++ before one copy is even sold. That is more than a leap of faith, that is a partnership. And it is an investment for the manufacturer. Because if those books sit in a warehouse, you might be angry that you see no royalties, but the manufacture just lost…L-O-S-T their own money. And it is entirely up to the designer/artist to select strong partnerships with the most prestigious manufactures available to them who are ethical, have high quality product, and treat their designers fairly. Because we are there.
And it is here that I really take issue with your comments. Until the artist can/is willing to take more of the financial risk that their work may or may not sell, until they are willing to use their own money to hire their own team, risk their own capital, form all of those powerful relationships well in advance of the product actually hitting the marketplace and seeing any revenue stream….well, I think that the risk is directly equal to the reward. If you license, if you agree a royalty, there is 100% no risk for the artist. There is a risk that you might not make money, but no risk that you will lose money. But for us there is.
Despite the fact that it is completely possible/appropriate that royalties can be negotiated higher when a talented artist is established and the risk of loss to the manufacturer becomes exponentially lower, what I am suggesting is that, for a beginner or for an expert, there is also room for this perspective: I would much rather work with artists who see that when they sign a contract, they just hired a staff: an editor, a designer, a photographer, a stylist, a printer, an inventory controller, a sales team with awesome contacts with top accounts, a publicist and a marketing team. Each of them is working to help your book see the highest sales they can achieve. And there is a cost to that, right?
I mean, if you were going to hire a talented and capable staff of experts, you would expect to pay them, right? Most of us don't have that capital, those skills, or those contacts, right?

And while, as Christa said, the pay for most staff in any creative field is low, we all love our job (because we sure as heck aren’t in it to make a ton of money either!) and we get to be creative and work with amazing art all day too. And those partnerships with my authors is what I love the most about my work…that I get to be a part of bringing their work in front of thousands.

So, my 2 cents is: The possibility for change lies in looking for ways to either minimize the risk for the manufacturer, or take on that risk yourself. But, until that happens, a change of perspective toward healthy partnerships that recognize the reality of the risk/reward balance is possible...and can be really wonderful if the designer/artist selects manufacturers with integrity and who produce quality products.

Great comment Susanne! thank you so much! A lot of great food for thought here. Your point about the manufacturers taking risk, I agree. I knew once I recorded this that I forgot to include my perspective on that very valid point.
However, many independent artists have taken huge amounts of risk to be in business for themselves. For me personally, I took a chance on my designs, going into financial debt to do so, to the tune of thousands of dollars, before I developed a style of work that sold.
The kinds of publishing agreements I am referring to in this recording are the ones with artists who have already spent years, taking risk and spending plenty of their own dollars developing a brand. If a publisher signs with an artist who has no record of selling their work or a loyal customer base, that is a different story. In that case, then the publisher has indeed taken on all the risk.
Also, I do very much like your idea of seeing these kinds of collaborations as partnerships. I do not yet feel like a partner, instead I feel like just one designer/artist supplying designs among a group of other artists who are also being represented by the same company - which is one of the reasons I brought this topic up to begin with. I am wanting to feel more connected to those companies I choose to work with. I am wanting to feel a more equitable agreement which is what a partnership feels like to me.
I do very much like and respect the publishing companies I've chosen to work with. That is vital to me, collaborating with people you like, who inspire you.
While I missed including the point about manufactures taking risk, I did realize that I missed emphasizing that I do view this as a collaborative effort which is why I included these points in my post above. I think you may have missed them?
'And I want to say again how much I appreciate the partnerships I've developed on the publishing side. I really love the companies I'm working with to take my brand farther. '
I could write a small book, I think in further response to your comment - so I might need to come back to address these in another post - podcast or video. I very much appreciate hearing from you and Christa. It's wonderful to hear more insight from within the publishing world.
I think the point of my podcast really comes down to this. The part of your comment where you said this:

'because we sure as heck aren’t in it to make a ton of money either!'

All I am challenging - and I'll say it AGAIN- with many of the podcasts and posts I choose to share here on my blog is why on earth creatives {working independently or within a company] continue to have this particular belief?

Well-done, Marisa. I appreciate your honesty and palpable passion about this topic. I see both sides of many of the points you made, and I had a great convo about this with someone recently as well. Really made me stop in my tracks and say, "hmmm...." Especially when I considered the idea that sales reps get paid a larger % than the artists! Yikes. However, given where I am now in my own journey, I'm more inclined to outline concepts much like those Christa and Susanne made b/c I'm on the manufacturing side of it at this point.

While my direct and indirect costs for producing fabrics are relatively straightforward, these crazy-steep expenses are unavoidable and non-negotiable. Taking these overhead numbers, I have created spreadsheet upon spreadsheet with cost breakdowns and cash flow projections for a few years out. Not wanting the end-price to the final consumer to be insurmountable, I've had to manipulate the numbers every which way to see where I will 'eat' an expense and where I can add it to the final cost of wholesale. All of this means I'm already coming at the pricepoint from an inelastic cash position. Add to this expensive mistakes, overlooked costs, and a staff of 1 without any guarantees (i.e. risk), and my manufacturing business becomes a big, fat pile of debt. It's not a happy burden and has really stolen my soul.

When a company's production is magnified probably 100, 000-fold compared to mine, so, too, are their expenses and their risks. If they were to begin paying artists much, much more, their end-price to consumers would end up pricing them out of the market. There isn't a lot of leeway to absorb small percentage increases like this, other than to increase prices. The current supply/demand market situation with cotton and how it has affected prices has illustrated how little add'l cost a company can absorb before they raise prices, as well as how much consumers will freak out at having to pay more. Very little understanding when it comes to price increases. Loyalty goes out the window.

Yet, it's true: folks are wealthy at the top of the company chain of command, or else why would they do what they're doing. Maybe they could take home a smaller percentage to offset what artists' should be paid. But capitalism is magnificent and disgusting all at once in this regard. Magnificent that we live in a country with a commerce model that allows us to choose how to make money, including making art, and disgusting in that someone else (unless you're taking on the risk yourself) with vision, experience and money will be able to and happy to capitalize on what we can't or choose not to do for ourselves - get it mass-produced and sold on a large scale.

I don't think it's ever a bad thing to hold ourselves in high-esteem and ask to be paid more - never, ever, ever. But there are many, many complex models, precedents and calculations that need to be considered, from many angles, before a sweeping change could be made. I realize you're not suggesting to just flip a switch - and that this is just the start of opening up serious and sincere conversation about this b/c the system as it stands seems very antiquated indeed. Thank you for that. More discussion needs to take place on what we, as a society, value and how we've affected the cheapening of our collective pool of talent, innovation and skill.

As a side note, I would like to be able to take this very honest, bold and heart-felt approach to speaking about organic cotton. To me, it's the elephant in the room that everyone is afraid to really address b/c it will mean admitting so many icky things about what we've come to accept as okay (like artists' not getting paid enough).

Hi Marissa!
Wow. Good for you. I am actually speaking on this subject next week at a local designers conference, and I am so glad you said what you did. What is Success? And shouldn't we all be entitled to get what we work for?

Great thoughts. I am on both sides of the fence. Having been in publishing and licensing and running my own business, I think it's really important to know and understand all sides. There are so many issues involved....all the way down to the economy and politics. But, putting all that aside, I think you've raised some really great points and have brought light to a subject that often artists don't bring up because frankly, we're all too busy trying to "make it" to stop and see where we really are.

That said, I think I want to join the conversation in the comments too...
I think that susanne brought up some really great points that I totally agree with. The idea of success, and how to get there shouldn't ever be a struggle against a system. If it is, we need to know the system better, or avoid the systems that feel like a struggle. I for one, have never had anything but extremely positive experiences from my publishing and licensing, and have always felt like I've been paid what my time is worth. I don't say that to disagree with you, but only to say that maybe relationships with the companies you work with is KEY. Many of us artists are emotional people, who care about ourselves and others, and so therefore, relationships and mutual respect for each other's sides is really important. So there are companies that do care, and do value artist's work and the working relationship, and maybe it's up to us to find that perfect "marriage." I've been told, and I agree, that finding an editor, publisher, licensing company, etc. is like dating and marriage. It takes time, effort and looking around. But in the end, a good marriage results in good success for both parties. And that translates into $$ because both parties are looking out for each other. So, I'm here to voice that is is possible find fair compensation for your time and work.

My philosophy in my business is : Only do what you do best and let others do the rest" I've always hired out help so that I can focus on growing and developing myself as an artist and creative and creating more. This doesn't always work out since I also have family to care for, but the idea is, I make money off my art, not off of running a business. Now, hiring out, translates into less profit for me...but over time, it has allowed me to be an artist...which is what the whole brand is, right? And if I'm too tied down to my business, money, bad working relationships, etc. and not able to work on the larger scale creative projects, then I'm just running around in circles. And that is REALLY easy to do.

The truth is you can't make lots of money from a small 1 person operation. You have to have eggs in a few other baskets. And that's where a working licensing relationship can be really good. I've had products licensed to companies where I have never seen a check. Or if there has been one, it's so little it wasn't even worth my time to email them back and forth as much as we did. I've cut off those ties, and have put my energy into what is working. It's like pruning a grape fine. You have to cut back on the things that are draining you, and put all the nutrients into what will produce fruit. And that takes a really long time to figure out!

Such a great podcast. The truth is, we ARE over worked, and it's REALLY HARD! and I think it's MORE than important to bring light to that!! But I also believe that despite a possible difficult system, we can find paths that work for us, and we can help each other with those paths. For me, it's using licensing for what it does best, and using my small business for what it does best. I also really believe that this journey, if it wasn't so hard, wouldn't be teaching me what I have needed to learn about the value of my art. If I didn't have to work so hard to find the right fit for me to find success in my art, I don't know if success would truly be found for me. Working really hard, and sweating over this journey is only redeeming and only produces stronger muscles in my opinion...which frankly marissa, you have!

I don't think you'd be where you are as an artist without asking the questions you have asked yourself because of the system we find ourselves in. So thank you so much for this post!!!! I hope to hear more follow up on it. It's very, very relevant to us all!

I have to add this: (see...i'm editing my own thoughts:)

I don't feel like I have arrived to where I want to be as an artist...I still feel like I am swimming up stream. However, I do feel like I've found a path that doesn't leave me struggling against a non-working system. I struggle, yes! Being a self-employed artist is just hard work no matter how you look at it. I just want to say to all artists out there, that I do feel like there is a path where you can be "successful" or at least feel that if you stay on that path you know you will find success. Does that mean you will find yourself wealthy and rich? Who knows. But I guess what I mean is, I agree Marissa, that there needs to be some changing in the system. But until that happens, there are ways to struggle less and use what is working for and not against you.

Marisa, you are really such a lovely person. I think you are super brave and i thank you to speak such elequent words on behave of me as well. It choked me up. Thank you...xoxo Dana

Good point, Marisa! Yes, we all need to change our beliefs around this, whether we work independently or within a company. We are in it because we love it AND we want to make money while we are at it! There's nothing wrong with that!!

marisa, thank you so much for creating + sharing this piece. as a young and former (corporate) graphic designer now working to get back to my fine art roots and ideas ... your blog, honesty in this podcast, and your work, is all truly inspiring for me. it's so difficult to follow your heart when society has taught us to go-go-go, $$$, and work super hard in a very lock-step, goal-oriented fashion, in order to define success. i really appreciated the way you spoke in this podcast, with experience and genuine emotion, it touched on so many things i have wondered about, things i know about, and things i don't. but all in all, encouraging that there are others in the same boat, that following your heart does matter, and that we can be a part of the little successes, together. thank you so much. kiele

Marisa, I've been thinking about this all day long after hearing your podcast, and especially after reading the discussion above. I *so* hear you about wanting to be paid well for your work. Of course you want to feel valued. I appreciate the publishers and manufacturers who have spoken up here to explain their share of the financial burden, and to help shed light on the perceived imbalance.

One very radical solution would be for us to disclose what we are paid in licensing deals and royalties... the perception is that it must be enormous (particularly if the product is popular) but as you know, the reality is very different. The thought of just coming out with the numbers is terrifying to me, but a small voice in my head (or perhaps the devil on my shoulder) says it is not my job to keep secrets.

Is providing transparency the same thing as throwing down the gauntlet? I think Susanne, Christa, and Jan all made excellent points on behalf of manufacturers and publishers, so I don't see a good vs. evil here. I see a huge breach in communication, perhaps all the way down to the end consumer. If you have done your due diligence, put in your time, built your brand, honed your craft, and gathered an attentive and loyal audience, then you deserve to be paid for it... whether you are the artist or the manufacturer.

If, at the end of the day, you're being paid a pittance and you're the only one who knows it, perhaps it will help to tell someone else. There shouldn't be such a discrepancy between what we *appear* to be paid, and what we, in reality, are paid.

thank you so much for this Jan. It's especially wonderful to hear from you on this topic because you are in such a unique position working as a designer and a manufacturer that also happens to be your own company.
What I've been thinking about since I read your comment is that you shed light on an aspect to this equation that I had not thought of yet and that is our end consumer - which really, at the end of the day encompasses all of us.
Maybe we have not thought this one all the way through yet... to educating our customer? to value art, and those who are creating quality products in all areas of this industry.
I know exactly what you are talking about in the fabric industry. In the short time I have been working with Andover have the same dilemmas in regards to the price of cotton and trying to stay competitive in the market.
And I hope you do feel inspired to share more of the story behind organic cotton. I would like to know more about this.
thank you again Jan

Really good stuff here Sarah. Thank you! I appreciate you weighing in as a successful artist who does feel happy with your licensing agreements. You bring up some great points. The one that speaks to me the loudest, as you probably already know - since I've spoken with you about it before- is that I have to learn to let go of the tasks that are not where my strongest gift is - the creative side, the same as you. I know I need to get help in order to really expand in the way that I am wanting. Honestly, after reading your comments - I am realizing that some of my frustration may also be based in the fact that I feel as if I'm stuck - needing help but fearing that I won't be able to afford it. I know that it is time to let that belief go, so thank you for the reminder. In good news, I have taken baby steps in this direction and will be taking more by months end. Good luck with your talk. I will be curious to know how it goes and if you get new insight to share from it.

You bring up another great point Melody. Which is: Why are we not sharing what we get paid? I think to really answer that question we are going to have start an entirely new topic which deals with our societal beliefs around money and that is a deep, deep topic. But, hey I'm game :)

Just listened to this podcast today. Bravo Marisa! Thank you for being so open and honest, and starting a dialogue that is an important one to have!

I love what you create and I love that you share it all with us.

I really was sparked by your thoughts. Having been on both sides- the licensing end and the manufacturing (licensee) end, I can really say it's a complicated subject. I've pretty much written a small volume in response!

Having been a designer for a garment manufacturing/sales company for over 15 years, then being the designer and design director for my own manufacturing/sales business, I definitely have an insider's understanding. For a manufacturer, licensors can help build their business and their brand (the choices companies make help define who they are), however, few manufacturers build their brand on the backs of a single designer... so that one designer is often a small percentage of the entire makeup. A company's brand is also not necessarily synonymous with that of the designer's as few relationships are truly exclusive. And vice versa, of course.

Manufacturing holds great financial investment, expenses and risk (albeit, as calculated as it can be). Profits on fabric yardage are not in dollars for the manufacturer, either. The profits are after all expenses have been considered. While the percentages to licensors seem small, I can honestly say in regards to my own personal pockets, our designers take home more money than I do on their range and I have invested a lot more time in the project from the getting it underway through to the sale of the last bolt of fabric. It's a very time consuming and multi-faceted process.

In regards to the licensing end, I have formulated the notion that for artists, licensing, especially in its earliest phases, is a Brand builder, not a means of support in and of itself. To make it really work, one needs to license to many (or do their own product-making) to permeate the market with one's imagery until the Brand takes hold and has clout of its own. This can hopefully lead to more exclusive and lucrative deals - or direct manufacturing- which can offer higher percentages to designers (or more accurately, the Brand- as building a Brand takes many people and the profits must then again be split).

Finding a good manufacturing/sales company is like hiring a builder to make your home. Even if you design it, you probably need funding, have questions that need answering and you probably can't put it together by yourself. So you need the expertise of others and that can come at a seemingly great cost- and as is often the case the better they are, the more it will cost you. But as you weigh options and make choices and work with them, the result is, you've built your house.

I personally, did not gravitate towards licensing because I only wanted to make fabric, not build the "Michelle Brand". I also saw the amount of time and effort it would take and the return on that investment (of time, money and passion), for me, was not worth it. I like being creative- and making money on my creativity. Having been a stifled creative for a living designing for private label companies and getting paid much, much more than I do being more creative and doing my own work for my own goals I can clearly see the appeal of either/or. Licensing held neither perk for me: I still had to design for "them" and I didn't get paid a whole lot in the end. BUT, it did get me HERE. So I am glad for the opportunities that came my way and I said yes to. The experience wasn't one that left me with a bad taste, I just knew it was something I didn't want to do for an extended period as a result.

The idea that "you've made it" (a funny little term) by licensing to one or even a few companies, I think is a bit optimistic. I think it means you're on your way. Truly "making it", to me, implies that you have the power and means to do be in complete control of your Brand. But more than that, I suppose it's a matter of perspective. If all you've ever hoped for was to make fabric with X Company and you finally have, then perhaps you have "made it"... but most people continue to dream bigger.

Anyway, that's the start of my thinking. Took me a while to organize, too! Thanks for your honesty and perspective... and the mental stimulation.

Michelle, I'm so glad you commented here... I thought about you and your business when reading Jan's account above. It's so nice to hear your perspective, especially as it pertains to the fabric industry. Having given so much thought to licensing lately (and having attended Surtex), it's very comforting to hear your positive take on licensing as a brand builder. This is a stimulating topic... I look forward to Marisa's follow up!

Fantastic Michelle~ Thank you! for sharing your small volume with us. More great insight from someone who walks both sides of this world. The more I hear from everyone, the more I am getting a better understanding of the whole picture. It is so, so helpful. Particularly echo your point of licensing, at least in the beginning being more about building your brand. I think it's easy to get this idea in our heads that exposure equals 'finished' with getting your name out there and building that brand - but actually very often it is just the beginning in a whole new arena.
Also since I recorded this I read a great post on 'making it' <a href="http://christinemasonmiller.com/2011/05/23/6960/">http://christinemasonmiller.com/2011/05/23/6960/</a> by my friend Christine where she wrote 'Every day that I get to do the work I love, I’m making it'.
I think this is how I will sums it up as well. Which means I have made it. licensing, fabric line etc. aside. - doing work I love. That's why I started all of this to begin with :)

Such great follow up, Marisa, melody & Michelle. This is so great to hear!
I think that you are all totally right. Your own perspective and what you hope to achieve is almost as diverse as the companies you work for. But even today, meeting with a Licensee company for a certain product, I remembered again: ONE company isn't going to allow me to MAKE it. It's all the pools combined that will hopefully, like Michelle mentioned, allow you to be in control of your brand/art/business eventually. The exposure is the start of it!

And as far as what you are worth, it's all personal. I know designers who live in Manhattan and have Manhattan cost of living to consider where I have a family in the suburbs and have a family to care for. So it's all so relative. But, at the same time, I think the more "legs" you give your business to leverage your brand, and the less time you spend feeling "stuck" the more success you will fine. Great discussion!!!

It is really interesting how we can't "out with" the numbers. Why? Even now, as I've been "given" that number as a licensee and "give" that same number to licensors, I'm feeling I'd be breaching some sort of non-existent confidentiality clause.

Someone above mentioned the Graphic Artist’s Guild Handbook which is a good source for getting a grasp on that particular field, but it doesn't really relate to licensing across the board (a very vast field). If some group was to survey this arena and compile it, I'm sure it would be of great interest to many folks.

I have been working in the Licensing industry for 7 years now. I have always felt there is a scarcity mindset amongst the artists themselves. People don't really like to talk numbers/money. So we all reinvent the wheel over and over again. I know exactly what a royalty check for greeting cards looks like. I have spoken to manufacturers, and their margins are slim. I think once you get on the other side of the curtain you (once you arrive), you just see the truth. It's not an easy way to get rich. A few people do really well, but many don't, and get very disappointed, and probably feel "deceived" in a way. I think licensing can only be looked at as one of the eggs in your basket. For most artists it will not be the end all be all.