October 19, 2008

the value you place on yourself and your work

Value yourself

hi, it’s me ~ the lady who keeps this blog~ :)

After just over two years of keeping this blog and posting hundreds of my creations, I had my first public comment questioning the value of what I create. Normally I would not bring focus to this but because I tend to talk candidly about these subjects on my blog and podcasts, in my continuing effort to encourage others that they too can make a living as a creative, I thought this would be a perfect example to remind all of us of our worth~ that the value we place on ourselves and on what we create is of supreme importance.

To ever be an artist of any kind, and actually sell your creations ~ valuing your work is a decision you will have to make. And if you grow as an artist and a business owner, this is a decision you will continue to make time and time again. As we all know creative work in itself is incredibly subjective ~ and more often than not it’s selling price is in the eye of the beholder. Since it is in the eye of the beholder, the first value that must be placed is your own, and that will directly correlate with the value you place upon yourself, combined with your business intentions ~ each incredibly personal choices.

Valuing myself and my work enough to attach a dollar sign to it has been and continues to be one of the most challenging parts of being in business for myself, especially as an artist. I give great thought to every part of Creative Thursday, and especially the pricing of my creations. I will therefore not use this post to publicly justify my pricing. I will say that it is my intent as an artist to create meaningful, quality creations that I love and that I hope add great value to the world ~ and as a business owner it is my intent to price my products in a way that feels fair, and right with the value I place upon myself and my work. I trust that my loyal following of customers understand this. And to those customers who continue to show their support by enthusiastically purchasing my creations without question, I am endlessly thankful.

Before I sign off, I also want to add that I completely understand that we all place different value on different things, and that is just as it should be. And of course I’m not asking anyone to purchase my work who does not want to, for whatever reason. I also want people to feel like they can comment freely even if they disagree with me. I truly appreciate a willingness to bring up subjects that can be considered "controversial" or "uncomfortable" ~ I know it’s not always easy in a public forum, and I can relate, always feeling slight trepidation every time I post something here that I think is not what everyone might relate to or "want to hear"~ always hoping that it comes across right in this written medium.  I actually do appreciate this particular comment for all the thought it has stirred in me. With that said, however, I do not post and share my work here on this blog ever asking for approval of its worth. And I would ask that if you feel compelled to challenge that publicly you first consider whether that challenge is coming from security or insecurity in yourself. And second I would ask that you give some thought to the kind courage it takes for any person to create or express from their personal selves and share it publicly. Then put yourself in their shoes.

*Edit* Monday, October 20 ~ this is turning into such an interesting discussion, via the comments ~ so I have to also say thank you to Amy for beginning it with her initial comment, and let you know that I will be back with more thoughts related to this subject and a whole other one that was opened as a result of this, but in the meantime I am responding via the comments below and thanks to everyone so far for graciously chiming in.

*Edit* also on Monday, later today :) ~ Just in case you don’t read through all the lengthy comments below ~ I wanted to respond here about the use of my words "insecurity and security" in my last paragraph above. It seems that it is being misunderstood and it is important to me clear this one up, as it seems to be calling Amy’s character into question and that was nor is ever my intent to call ANYONE’s personal character to the table on this blog ~ I should have been more clear in my statement. When I said "you" in the "you feel compelled to challenge..." ~  I meant this in general for all of us posting in the blog world, and I include myself in the "us" because I do ask this of myself every time I hit publish. It is very important to me that my words here or on any other blog come from a secure place in me. If it ever does not read that way, I’m truly sorry. It is entirely clear to me now more than ever just how much everything, not just pricing :), is left open to interpretation.  So in an attempt to be clearer, I am not calling any one person or Amy insecure. I am just asking all of us, myself included, to think clearly about our intentions before we hit publish on our own blog and especially on anyone elses. How it is interpreted beyond that is out of our control but if we feel solid and secure in our intentions that is always what matters.

Comments (25)

Unfortunately, sometimes giving any justifications just makes someone pick a few words from the response out of context and blow it out of proportion. And before you know it, the whole discussion steers away from the original topic. It's a free market. You can name a price and potential buyers are free to accept it or reject it. Besides, pricing of anything that involves labor is largely subjective.
I just found your blog through Etsy. What a great post I came upon! I just opened my Etsy shop this month and agree deciding what price to charge for things has been by far the hardest part.

Love your work!

Heidi Jo the Artist
http://swirlsofcreativity.etsy.com
http://swirlsofcreativity.blogspot.com
Marisa, I'm glad that you posted these thoughts, and I want to say wholeheartedly that artists and creative people shouldn't feel afraid to charge fair prices for their work. I am an artist myself, and I share my office with a real estate broker (my dear fiance) -- and he makes more money in 15 minutes than I do after 30 hours of painting. I think, if anything, we artists tend to undercharge for our work -- and this may create 'bargains' in the short run, but in the long run it makes it more and more difficult for us to support ourselves or to even find the time to create between shifts at Starbucks. Gosh... this was a long comment (sorry!).
I can see that my original comment has been misinterpreted, and I regret that. In retrospect, perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

Above, you state "And I would ask that if you feel compelled to challenge that publicly you first consider whether that challenge is coming from security or insecurity in yourself."

It was not my intention to publicly challenge the value of your work, or the value you place on your work, but rather the affordability for some of your blog readers of a multiply-produced version of your work (i.e. neither an original or a limited print run as far as I know). If I failed to convey that properly, my apologies. It's incredibly difficult to convey exact meaning over the Internet, although I did re-read my post several times and revise it because I absolutely did not want to be interpreted as criticizing your work or practices.

As a comparison, I would not be surprised to find an original painting by Georgia O'Keefe or a limited print photogaphy by Ansel Adams to cost $500. I would, however, be surprised if calendars of their work cost more than $20.

Nor would I be surprised if you charged $500 for an original painting, as I think your work is lovely. (If I recall correctly, some weeks or months back I think you had a blog post about how someone said your work was too cute all the time, and I rather staunchly defended your work.)

What is most distressing to me now is that apparently any comment that is not gushing praise of your commercial practices must mean that the poster has some sort of personality issue. I can assure you that my "personal security or insecurity" has no bearing on this issue. Here is the exact thought process that went through my head when I saw your calendar post:

"Oh wow, a calendar! It's gorgeous! I'd love to get one! ...(follows link to Etsy)... Oh no, it's $38. :-( I can't afford that. I wonder if I should let her know that I really like it but can't afford it. No, probably not. She'll probably misinterpret it. But wait. You know how they say in consumer relations that for every person that writes a letter, there are 100 more people who feel that way that didn't take the time to write a letter? So maybe there are more people who really like this calendar and can't afford it at this price. Maybe she really WOULD find it useful to know that, because otherwise she may have no idea that there are a lot of people who see and want this calendar, but can't afford it. Maybe for next year she might find a less expensive reproduction process that would allow her to price it lower, so more people could afford it. OK, I'll post a comment. But I'll try really hard to word it so she understands that I don't mean to be critical, especially because her costs are probably higher than mass-producing the calendars you see in stores. OK, I'll post that. And I'll be sure and tell her how much I like her work."

So, I'm sorry to learn that you think I'm insecure. I can assure you that in my professional life, I never display the kind of insecurity I've just witnessed here, by responding to a customer or potential customer's well-meaning comment by publicly calling their personal integrity into question.
I understand Amy ~ and I'm very sorry if my post has upset you.
Love your stuff, esp. your calendar. Having the 2008 one up all year really added a lot to my living space, a reminder of creativity when I was in a town that in general didn't feel too creative. I bought 2009 calendar already, looking forward to seeing it. Perhaps this whole thing is females thinking too hard about criticism, or differing opinions (I feel I can say that, cos I'm a woman and am familiar with that process!). Bottom line for me is, it's your calendar, your art, you set the price, and reap whatever consequences, sales or less sales, but I think people will buy. One can't always care what other people think. But thanks for giving us a bit of insight into this side of your creative business process.
Great post Marisa..and couldn't agree with you more.
wow interesting post here, I come from a different perspective since my work gets massed produced and also because I will be doing an Etsy site soon.

TO price work is no easy task you have to take into consideration the cost of the production and the value of the work itself. Naturally it is always better to give a fair price but if the cost of the production does not allow for that well then you would have to up it.

There will always be something that seems out of range for every customer. I had a an art show this summer which left me with these same thoughts and thinking do people think I am going to just give this stuff away? I found these shows to be degrading to say the least and would much prefer to sell on a more professional site like Etsy or gallery. Everybody wants a deal including me, but sometimes its just not possible.

I feel for both parties in this instance, and I am glad in a way people can buy some of my work in a mass quantity that in no way can break their bank, but on the other hand what is the value of something is always what the individual thinks its worth.

Actually I like that this discussion is taking place, since I find more often than not, blogland is way tooo nicey nicey without having full conversations about what may or may not be bothering them. I have no problem talking about anything and I am open to all comments good or bad. Its much more healthier to have these rather than the always make nice comments. I am sure you found this discussion helpful and if not your readers did.

Anyway glad to hear their is some talk in either case, and great response to it!
Marisa, I've just been reading over all this and I must say it's fascinating to me. As an artist myself I'm always amazed at peoples reactions to pricing because art is so subjective. I've always tried to have a variety of sizes and prices, especially when I'm doing an outdoor art show. I guess it's the casual atmosphere there but honestly, I could write a book about the comments I've heard usually when the person thinks I wont hear them and It's hard not to take it personally. After all it is a part of you. I've sold paintings for $30 on Etsy and I've sold paintings for $4000 through galleries. I find it a little sad that artists have to justify themselves constantly. I believe this topic is right up there with politics and religion!!!
I didn't read the comments before, so I can't really speak to them, but I do think this is an issue for myself.

I have been told again and again that I need to charge more for my work and I need to work bigger.

I am afraid to do both.

I know it, but I have a hard time overcoming the feelings of... I guess it's unworthiness to charge a lot (and for pieces that really are a bit of my soul) or paint big enough that my work would stand out from a wall and shout at you "I AM ART!"

I have no problem being creative and helping others to be creative, but I do have a problem asking people to pay for what I do, even if there are few who can do it.
Interesting post. I used to discuss this a lot with my husband who used to be a very successful artist. He'd show at these fancy-schmancy art shows on Park Ave. in NYC where some of the art cost six figures. He had difficulty pricing things and would always tell me that he couldn't price things according to how many hours he'd put into them. For instance, because of his very stark, exacting aesthetic, his process was extremely labour-intensive, taking about a month to produce one small sculpture. Whereas some of his contemporaries, showing at the same shows through the same gallery had pieces that took the artist only 90 minutes to create and bore the same price tag. "The buyer doesn't care how long it took you, or that at this price you're making only 50 cents an hour," my husband would say when I mentioned the apparent unfairness. I always had a tough time getting my head around that, but my husband did always price his work lower than higher, just to give it a better chance of selling (because, I have learned, even if you're dealing with people who flew in on their private jets, money ALWAYS matters). And his work always did. Now be that due to it being perceived as good value for money or not, I don't know.

It is very interesting though, the way you conveyed the critical comment, Marisa. I realize that since you are putting out a product that is so personal (such a part of you), if it is ever criticized it is nearly impossible to not take the comment personally. Which I think you did, Marisa (and I would too, so this isn't a judgement). And I think you were really hurt by it because in reading your post I figured it was a really nasty and horrible criticism when, in fact, I don't think it was (I went back and read it). In fact, I agree with Amy. It IS good that she told you, for as another blog reader/follower of your work, I felt the EXACT SAME WAY. I just wasn't going to bother telling you. Let me be very clear: When I saw the $38 price tag, I did not question the value of your calendar for that dollar amount, I simply thought, "Oh well, that's too much for me." It certainly wasn't that I thought your calendar wasn't WORTH paying $38 for, I just can't justify forking over $38 for a calendar, now or ever, really (unless I strike it rich). But there are lots of people who can and will, so I figured my response didn't matter.
So in short (too late), I agree with both of you. While loving your work and your calendar, I had the same reaction as Amy. And as non-mean-spirited and constructively critical as her comment was, as an artist, I can see why you were hurt and took it personally. Like I said, when you are putting an extension of yourself not only out there but up for sale, it's very difficult to NOT take things personally. Occupational hazard, I guess.

One last thing: you are very pretty, Marisa. It comes across especially in this photo--and it looks like you're not wearing a shred of makeup. Jealous! (But in an "I'm happy for you" kind of way.) And no, I am not saying this to suck up after agreeing with Amy; before even reading your post I'd decided I'd comment on how pretty you are...Funny how your exterior seems to be a perfect expression of you interior (or the little I know of your interior, anyway!)

Sorry to all for the long comment.
Wow, wonderful thoughts from everyone. I think both sides of this story/issue have been expressed exceptionally well by everyone. Sometimes things get misconstrued, feelings get hurt, apologies are made, forgiveness is extended, and healing begins. Thanks to Amy for taking the time to explain further, and thanks always to Marisa for putting it all out there.
Marisa, This post could not have come at a more perfect time for me... how do you do that?! Thank you, as always, for your sage, heartfelt words on the subject of pricing. You seem to find the perfect blend of head & heart intelligence in your approach to your business, and I appreciate your willingness to share your experiences.
Much love,
k
Wow, great topic. Now hold on a minute, let me climb up on my little soap box. I can understand both sides of this discussion, however, I never question an artists price for their work. I have a lot of artists friends who sell their paintings for a lot more than I do, and good for them. I've decided to price my own work, not by the time it takes (I would never make a profit that way), but by materials and what I would be willing to say goodbye to it for. Some pieces I may keep for several years or forever because I love them to much to let them go.
When it comes to my prints, materials and time count for most of the price. This calender, broken down, is quite a deal. I'm sure most of the people who have bought one plan on framing those prints after the years over. Nice paper with round edges, printing costs, punching holes and assembling them, I'd probably charge more because it looks very time consuming.
When it comes to artists and pet organization, I'm willing to pay a little more because they are near dear to my heart. We are so used to buying things from places like China etc... so our perspective on value has been jaded by mass produced crap. And if I want something and can't afford it, I'll save up for it.
This is just my opinion, feel free to critique it. I'm not afraid. Karin

Oh yeah, I wish I could post a picture of me right now without make-up, but I'll save it for Halloween. You look smashing Marisa, so jealous!
hi again from the lady who keeps this blog :)
I too love the discussion going on here ~ and thanks to everyone willing to chime in, especially Amy for her very first comment, which if you read all of my post above, you see that I also said that "I actually do appreciate this particular comment for all the thought it has stirred in me" ~ and I still do because it has resulted in this very discussion going on now and moved much more thought which I will elaborate on probably tomorrow.

In the meantime I just want to respond to a few things

Ellen ~ the "nicey" niceness of blogs ~ huge topic there.

Suzy ~ I too can see both sides, and thank you for delicately seeing both sides of this discussion in your comment
While I can appreciate a customer wanting to give feedback to a seller, let me see if I can be clearer about one of my points for this post which is to say that my blog comments section is not intended to be a survey for how I price my art. I did not ask, and am still not asking what anyone thinks of my pricing. If I was interested in getting feed back on my pricing, I would actually send out a survey, which I will keep in mind for the future. In the meantime I'm just sharing my creations here.

Since affordability and value are all so relative ~ the thought of telling anyone else what is appropriate or accurate for their pricing, whether they price their work at $5 or $17 million, whether I can afford it or not, just feels wrong to me. I either buy their product or service or I don't. Now, if they are actually asking for advice on that matter, that is different.

But then again ~ I do sort of love that you all have been willing to share your thoughts here ~ :)....so it might be worth calling things in to question just to get the conversation rolling!

and Karin Grow ~ that's pretty much how I feel, so thank you for saying it better than I have so far.

And to those of you complimenting the photo ~ that's very nice of you ~ thank you!...but you should know that I do believe, if I remember correctly, that I actually DO have a little bit of powder, blush and a tiny bit of lipstick...my makeup staples ~ and low lighting is always a bonus :)
Just think of this as an untapped market for Creative Thursday. Your rep should get on the horn with Urban Outfitters, work those licenses & get a calendar out there at a great price-point. Use the pricing comments as ammo!

I want to add that I think your pricing is spot on. To put it simply, consumers just cannot expect to get goods that are manufactured on a small scale domestically, for prices comparable to those that are mass-produced overseas. We really need to be considering this in our perceived value of products.
I totally get it, Marisa. That's why I never planned on expressing why I wouldn't be buying a calendar. You never ASKED us to chime in on the price (or on any price points, for that matter), so it wouldn't have occurred to me to say anything if this post hadn't raised the issue. Like you, I either buy something or I don't. I would never be so presumptuous to tell someone what their creation should cost, so I hope you don't think that's what my comment was about. And I REALLY hope you don't think my comment was trying to get you to amend your pricing because that couldn't be further from my intent. I guess I just wanted you to know that I love your calendar and would buy it for its current price if I wasn't having trouble paying my bills right now (even though I have never spent that much on a calendar before...but yours is really different and beautiful and I'm sure was pricey to produce). I thought I should chime in with Amy so that, on the off chance the calendars weren't selling as well as you thought (and I'm sure they are), you would know that it wasn't that some of us didn't LIKE them, it was just a matter of money. Valuing something and wanting to buy it often doesn't register when someone doesn't buy something. An artist simply assumes the person doesn't like their work enough (at least, my husband thought that). And I didn't want you to think that.
When I read Amy's initial comment, I actually agreed with her. The cold, hard fact is that, I too, can't afford a calendar at that price. $38 in US currency converts to something like $45 in Australian currency, then postage and packing on top....whoa, sorry, not that I wouldn't LOVE to own one, but it's just way outside my financial capability at this point in time! I don't believe any offence was intended and Amy's statement was only being truthful from her own viewpoint and possibly the viewpoint of others too. At the same time, feeling she was giving you 'food for thought' by other art calendar price comparisons. In reading her second comment to this post, I can see where she was coming from and I don't think she was trying to challenge you at all. Both her posts were quite complimentary.

That said, as a artist, you DO have the right to price your work as you see fit...ABSOLUTELY, without question...but, just because someone says it is out of their price range, doesn't mean they have security issues so I do think that implication was a little unfair.

Your calendar IS gorgeous and beautifully presented, Marisa, and it's obvious that there are those who CAN afford it so I genuinely hope you sell heaps of them. I truly wish I could afford one myself and I mean that wholeheartedly.

Btw, you are very photogenic and look so pretty in pics...lucky YOU!

Peace ~
Michelle ~"We really need to be considering this in our perceived value of products." ~ so true Michelle, thank you ~ and a whole other topic all together.

Suzy ~ I totally understand ~ thanks for returning to the comments and explaining it so nicely :)

Serena ~ thank you for your comment too ~ It seems that my use of the words "security and insecurity" are getting misunderstood ~ I will respond to those in an edit above for those who don't read through the comments.
Hi there Marisa...just found your site last week...love your work, and really appreciate this post. I've recently started trying to sell work again and found pricing it the hardest part...
Especially love your paintings family tree and gratitude...will be back!
Keep up the great work and posts! Lv Rebecca
This is a great discussion & couldn't be better timed for me as I figure out the best way to print, package & price my own prints. I know you've said you're not asking for feedback on pricing, but I would LOVE to see another blog post on just this topic.

I've been going through a heap of Etsy stores trying to compare the prices different artists set & came to the conclusion that there's just no way TO compare. The prices & methods vary widely, as do the reasons behind the pricing. Once you get outside Etsy & into limited edition prints, it gets even crazier.

From wanting to keep some items affordable for all budgets to wanting to maintain a perceived value to simply wanting to be paid for the amount of time put in, there are so many different variables.

And what if it's a simple work that didn't take much time but you just absolutely LOVE it? It might not be worth parting with for a low price! lol

Thanks again for the excellent blog & to all of the commenters for keeping the conversation going.
Found your blog and I agree with you whole heartedly...the price you charge for your work is completely subjective...it is what the market is willing to pay...there is a whole psychology on pricing for the retail market, but the bottom line here is what are people willing to pay for it?

If you hand made each calendar and charged $1000 and hundreds of people bought them, is that too high a price? NO.... some people just don't get it.


best,
carol
This is an incredibly important discussion. As you know, I have always been a fierce admirer of your passion for treating your work as an artist as a business and making no apologies for that.
I always think of lawyers, and other people in professions that make huge insane amounts of money, when I feel like I might be charging too much for my artwork, or when I consider buying a piece of art that speaks to me. I once had to call to a lawyer who charged $200 and we only talked for 20 minutes. I am certain he did not feel one ounce of guilt for that!

Artists are also probably the most sensitive people and therefore are easily hurt and taken aback at anything that appears to be a criticism. I guess that's why the art blogs are usually so sweet and nice, we all know how it feels to be stung and we are extra careful. Although I am sure the commentor's honest comments were not meant to be hurtful, its a fine line that sometimes might be better dealt with in a private email.
fantastic discussion. pricing is sooo hard for an artist, the constant justification to one's self and the million variables that come into play. i find that once i come to a price i might feel really differently the next day!
it's such a rarity to have an artist/maker or even blogger discuss this topic, yet i think like any other support mechanism it would be incredibly valuable if more did. {i know you didn't actually want to at this time marisa :) }
i know what u mean annie, i looked at a bill i received the other day and the $35 charge just for paying a day late and thought, dammmn, they didn't put any creative thought/ideas/materials/parts of self or soul into that involuntary 'sale' !!!
thanks marisa and to all other commenters :)